Do we all worship the same God?
I've been hearing discussions in several places lately about whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God. In almost every case, I've been distressed that so many people are so ill-informed about basic facts of our religious history.
The first thing to note is that it's practically a meaningless question. Jews and Christians and Muslims regularly consider each other to be, in some way, getting God wrong. Whether the God they're getting wrong, then, is the "same" one is a distinction almost not worth making.
But then there are folks on the other side of the coin, who want to use our common belief in Jehovah as some sort of banner. Pretty much anything that comes before or after the phrase "After all, we all worship the same God" is guaranteed to be a wish for peace that is quite simply unrealistic: such people are either naive or haven't been paying attention. If we're ever to have complete peace among folk of different religions, it won't be because we've all suddenly realized we "worship the same God." Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland worshiped the same God.
As did Cain and Abel.
That last fact should take us to where we belong: that brothers and sisters and cousins draw blood from each other is an underpinning of the Abrahamic faiths. It's built into the very worldview of all three religions (as well as most other religions) that humanity will be in sin and conflict for a good long time.
Nonetheless, it's important to separate fact from fiction and fancy.
Some say that the spiritual world is bursting with thousands of deities and semi-deities to be aligned with or mollified (Hinduism, pre-Islamic Arabic religions); some say that we are the pawns of a band of gods and goddesses who align with or against each other (Greek, Roman, Norse religions); and some say that there may be no gods at all but rather there is the world and we can either align ourselves with it or not (Buddhism).
Then there are folks who say there is one and only one God, the creator and sustainer of all that is, the summum bonum, the unmoved mover that exists beyond our cosmos and created it ex nihilo, who made Adam out of clay, who brought Noah through the flood, who made himself known to Moses, who makes himself known to man through his revelation (rather than some mystic divination on the part of man), and who can for lack of a better term be called "The God of Abraham."
Among those folks are the three great Western religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That's right, Western. All three are part of the Western tradition of life and thought, and all three are what we would now call Middle-Eastern in origin. Think of two distinguishing marks of the West: one, a confidence that a single omnipotent Creator has created an orderly creation that can be explored and understood, leading to an explosion of understanding and exploitation of the natural world; two, a confidence in humanity's place as over-and-above, leading to [in our best moments] a sense of responsibility toward the natural world and to a placing of the human at the center of art and literature — and, in the Christian world, a placing of the human figure at the center of visual art. It's easy to see that these three religions have ineluctably shaped the West.
Now, it's obvious that Jews and Christians and Muslims have divergent beliefs about the one true God. Indeed, even within each of those groups there are divergent beliefs such that one can truthfully if only poetically say that my wife and I "don't worship the same God," although we would affirm that beyond the level of idiofide we most certainly do. But, even with those divergent beliefs in mind, it's a bit acrobatic to say that Muslims and Christians and Jews don't worship the same God.
Certainly the God of the Koran is different in many dimensions from the God of the J account or the God of St Paul's letter to the Romans; no more different than is warranted by the divergent relationships God institutes with Ishmael and with Isaac. But those relationships are surely no less real for being divergent. And the nature of those divergences is in fact covered right in the scripture that Christians and Jews call sacred. Remember that God promises Abraham he will be the father of great nations; Abraham, in his old age, and with an old wife, takes the initiative of fathering Ishmael with his servant Hagar. Then he has a legitimate son, Isaac, with his (still old) wife Sarah. So both diverging lines carry the blood of Abraham, and both are the fulfillment of a promise to the "father of nations," though Christians and Jews believe that the offspring of Isaac carry the primary covenant. The children of Ishmael and the children of Isaac have been at war ever since.
Exactly who is the Jehovah we worship? We can note that Genesis 16 and 17 and 21, which touch on God's relationship with the Arab people, indeed his covenant with them, are not only part of our shared history but part of our (Christian, Jewish) vision of the character of God.
Here we have a clear picture of God saying to Hagar that he hears her affliction and will have his own way of caring for Ishmael and seeing to his descendants, promising to make of them a great nation, assuring Hagar and Ishmael (and Abraham) over and over that, in that distinctive repeated phrase, he hears them. In the face of such a promise, I find it difficult not to hear the shrill voice of Sarah ("Cast out the son[s] of this bondwoman!") in much of our modern discourse.
The first thing to note is that it's practically a meaningless question. Jews and Christians and Muslims regularly consider each other to be, in some way, getting God wrong. Whether the God they're getting wrong, then, is the "same" one is a distinction almost not worth making.
But then there are folks on the other side of the coin, who want to use our common belief in Jehovah as some sort of banner. Pretty much anything that comes before or after the phrase "After all, we all worship the same God" is guaranteed to be a wish for peace that is quite simply unrealistic: such people are either naive or haven't been paying attention. If we're ever to have complete peace among folk of different religions, it won't be because we've all suddenly realized we "worship the same God." Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland worshiped the same God.
As did Cain and Abel.
That last fact should take us to where we belong: that brothers and sisters and cousins draw blood from each other is an underpinning of the Abrahamic faiths. It's built into the very worldview of all three religions (as well as most other religions) that humanity will be in sin and conflict for a good long time.
Nonetheless, it's important to separate fact from fiction and fancy.
Some say that the spiritual world is bursting with thousands of deities and semi-deities to be aligned with or mollified (Hinduism, pre-Islamic Arabic religions); some say that we are the pawns of a band of gods and goddesses who align with or against each other (Greek, Roman, Norse religions); and some say that there may be no gods at all but rather there is the world and we can either align ourselves with it or not (Buddhism).
Then there are folks who say there is one and only one God, the creator and sustainer of all that is, the summum bonum, the unmoved mover that exists beyond our cosmos and created it ex nihilo, who made Adam out of clay, who brought Noah through the flood, who made himself known to Moses, who makes himself known to man through his revelation (rather than some mystic divination on the part of man), and who can for lack of a better term be called "The God of Abraham."
Among those folks are the three great Western religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. That's right, Western. All three are part of the Western tradition of life and thought, and all three are what we would now call Middle-Eastern in origin. Think of two distinguishing marks of the West: one, a confidence that a single omnipotent Creator has created an orderly creation that can be explored and understood, leading to an explosion of understanding and exploitation of the natural world; two, a confidence in humanity's place as over-and-above, leading to [in our best moments] a sense of responsibility toward the natural world and to a placing of the human at the center of art and literature — and, in the Christian world, a placing of the human figure at the center of visual art. It's easy to see that these three religions have ineluctably shaped the West.
Now, it's obvious that Jews and Christians and Muslims have divergent beliefs about the one true God. Indeed, even within each of those groups there are divergent beliefs such that one can truthfully if only poetically say that my wife and I "don't worship the same God," although we would affirm that beyond the level of idiofide we most certainly do. But, even with those divergent beliefs in mind, it's a bit acrobatic to say that Muslims and Christians and Jews don't worship the same God.
Certainly the God of the Koran is different in many dimensions from the God of the J account or the God of St Paul's letter to the Romans; no more different than is warranted by the divergent relationships God institutes with Ishmael and with Isaac. But those relationships are surely no less real for being divergent. And the nature of those divergences is in fact covered right in the scripture that Christians and Jews call sacred. Remember that God promises Abraham he will be the father of great nations; Abraham, in his old age, and with an old wife, takes the initiative of fathering Ishmael with his servant Hagar. Then he has a legitimate son, Isaac, with his (still old) wife Sarah. So both diverging lines carry the blood of Abraham, and both are the fulfillment of a promise to the "father of nations," though Christians and Jews believe that the offspring of Isaac carry the primary covenant. The children of Ishmael and the children of Isaac have been at war ever since.
Exactly who is the Jehovah we worship? We can note that Genesis 16 and 17 and 21, which touch on God's relationship with the Arab people, indeed his covenant with them, are not only part of our shared history but part of our (Christian, Jewish) vision of the character of God.
Here we have a clear picture of God saying to Hagar that he hears her affliction and will have his own way of caring for Ishmael and seeing to his descendants, promising to make of them a great nation, assuring Hagar and Ishmael (and Abraham) over and over that, in that distinctive repeated phrase, he hears them. In the face of such a promise, I find it difficult not to hear the shrill voice of Sarah ("Cast out the son[s] of this bondwoman!") in much of our modern discourse.
Comments
http://www.letusreason.org/islam12.htm
Among them:
“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)."
While it's true as you pointed out that the roots of the three religions are the same (Abraham and Sarah/Hagar), Islam and Christianity have diverged massively since then. Any attempt to claim (as you seem to be) that Allah and Jehovah are the same God is pretty much slam dunk refuted by the Koran's own words. Multiple times. With impunity.
This is not to say that Jehovah doesn't have a plan for the children of the Koranic religion. I'm just not willing to go along with the touchy-feely inclusiveness that sits around in a circle singing Kumbayah.
I call B.S. on ya, brother. Nicely worded, prettily phrased, but still B.S. Did you really write this? Not your normal cogent thinking.
I wish you did, because I'd love to see you take it point by point.
And I checked out the page you linked to, which is filled with error. We'll have to toss it around some time. For now it's sufficient to say that the Christianity he's comparing to Islam would be unrecognizable in Geneva in 1580.
Meanwhile, here are some of the "pretty un-Jehovahish things" you quote:
> “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill
> him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)
Here's the real Jehovah: Leviticus 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
How is it that one statement is un-Jehovahish and the other isn't?
> “Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion,
> it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter
> he will be with the losers”
I'll point out that this verse doesn't apply to righteous Christians and Jews, whom Islam states will go to heaven:
Koran 2:62 Truly those who believe, and the Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabaeans -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs virtuous deeds -- surely their reward is with their Sustainer, and no fear shall come upon them, neither shall they grieve.
Passages like the one you quoted (which abound in the Koran) most likely apply to polytheistic worshipers of false gods in the pre-Islamic Arab world: Baal and genies and all that. As for how our common God feels about them, a trip through the minor prophets leaves no doubt.
> “Slay the idolators [non-
> Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them
> captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them
> each ambush.... (Sura 9:5,29,41)."
Very recognizable, yes? Compare this to the genocides of Joshua, where again and again God ordains the slaughter of idolaters. What do we Christians say about these? No doubt our answers are complex and shaded with historical background and understanding that allows us a conclusion that today God doesn't approve of genocide.
This is a common mistake modern American Christians make in talking about other people's religions. (Everyone else makes it too, about religion and everything else.) All the verses of our own scripture that sound barbaric and ugly we can explain or get around (or, in the case of many, simply ignore), and at any rate we don't think that's really the main thrust of our religion, whose God is so loving; and yet we're not quite as willing to give other religions the same break.
How exactly *do* you reconcile the God of Leviticus and Joshua with what you've pointed out here?
> the three religions are the same (Abraham and
> Sarah/Hagar), Islam and Christianity have diverged
> massively since then.
Agreed. They're three very different religions.
> Any attempt to claim (as you seem to be) that Allah
> and Jehovah are the same God is pretty much slam
> dunk refuted by the Koran's own words. Multiple times.
> With impunity.
As for Allah, "Allah" isn't the Muslim name for God; it's the *Arabic* name for God. Christians worship Allah, and call him that, if they're worshiping in Arabic. So, my missionary friends in Lebanon address God as "Allah," for precisely the same reason they'd address him as "Dumnezeu" in Romanian, "Gott" in German, "Bog" in Russian, "Jumala" in Finnish (that odd non-Indo-European European language!).
So, indeed, Allah *is* the God of the Bible if that Bible is written in Arabic.
These things matter, and they matter more and more in our religious and political discourse. Part of why I wrote this post to begin with is that so many are so sloppy.
As for your actual claim that we don't worship the same God, here's where I'm going to ask for a good fisking. The Koran makes it clear that it draws its lineage straight from the Judeo-Christian tradition, especially as compared with Norse myth, Buddhism, Hinduism. Islamic scripture may disagree with the Bible on the actual roles of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Mary, and Jesus, but its inclusion of these figures places it firmly with the three great religions gathered around the God of Abraham.
There may be a forest of quotes like the ones on the page you cited, that show God as judgmental and vicious in phrases that are unfamiliar to us, but there are no claims in the Koran itself that the Jews and the Christians worship a false god and not the same one Muhammad worships. There couldn't be. (Certainly, as I mentioned, there's no doubt that Islam considers Judaism and Christianity to get things false and to be incomplete, but that's not what we're talking about, right?)
> This is not to say that Jehovah doesn't have a
> plan for the children of the Koranic religion. I'm
> just not willing to go along with the touchy-feely
> inclusiveness that sits around in a circle singing
> Kumbayah.
Here's where you're pretty persuasive. On this point you may have me convinced, though I'm not sure that's the most forceful way to phrase it. I might rather put it like this:
there are folks on the other side of the coin, who want to use our common belief in Jehovah as some sort of banner. Pretty much anything that comes before or after the phrase "After all, we all worship the same God" is guaranteed to be a wish for peace that is quite simply unrealistic: such people are either naive or haven't been paying attention. If we're ever to have complete peace among folk of different religions, it won't be because we've all suddenly realized we "worship the same God." Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland worshiped the same God.
As did Cain and Abel.
Now if you'd said *that*, I would have thought, "wow, I couldn't have said it better myself."
> I call B.S. on ya, brother.
The part about Kumbayah? Or the part about Islam being an Abrahamic faith?
On Kumbayah, I'm right with you. (By the way, how would you like to be the guy who wrote Kumbayah? Imagine the daily kick in the pants that is that guy's life. At least the guy who wrote "Feelings" gets royalties!)
As for Islam being an Abrahamic faith, I can't imagine you're really saying that.
As for my claim -- which I put first and foremost -- that it's a meaningless question, I rather think you agree with me.
Which part did you think was prettily phrased? The part where I point out the reality that people of all faiths like to kill each other? The part where I mention Northern Ireland and how the Protestants and Catholics "worship the same God?" My delicate mention of Cain and Abel? My cockeyed optimism as I foolishly claim that brothers and sisters and cousins draw blood from each other and that humanity will be in sin and conflict for a good long time?
And which part did you think was BS?
[a] "Whether the God they're getting wrong, then, is the "same" one is a distinction almost not worth making."
[b] "Pretty much anything that comes before or after the phrase "After all, we all worship the same God" is guaranteed to be a wish for peace that is quite simply unrealistic"
[c] "It's built into the very worldview of all three religions (as well as most other religions) that humanity will be in sin and conflict for a good long time."
[d] my characterization of ancient, bronze age, and medieval polytheism
[e] my characterization of Western monotheism
[f] "Now, it's obvious that Jews and Christians and Muslims have divergent beliefs about the one true God."
[g] "But, even with those divergent beliefs in mind, it's a bit acrobatic to say that Muslims and Christians and Jews don't worship the same God."
[h] my brief history of Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac
[i] "We can note that Genesis 16 and 17 and 21, which touch on God's relationship with the Arab people, indeed his covenant with them, are not only part of our shared history but part of our (Christian, Jewish) vision of the character of God."
My guess is that out of all of these, the only one you might have a problem with is [g], though you seem to think I said the opposite of [a], [b], and [c]. As for [g], I think my discussions of the world's religions and of the Genesis account supply a pretty good argument for it, though I'd be interested to see your response.
> Did you really write this? Not your
> normal cogent thinking.
I'm glad you think I'm usually cogent, but I did indeed write it.
I might be forgiven for wondering if you read it. I can't find a much better way of opposing touchy-feely inclusiveness than my opening paragraphs, and yet you still seem to hear it here.
Do you at least agree with me (as I think you might) that the whole question is practically meaningless? When the 37 members of Westboro Baptist seem to picture a heaven that holds right around 37 people, there's plenty of bloodshed to go around between people whether or not they worship the same speckled-mirror-glimpsed deity.